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<title data-rh="true">Why every software engineering interview should include ops questions</title>
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weight-medium-fw81nC transform-uppercase-yKDgcq reset-IxiVJZ meta-EgzBVA"><time datetime="2021-08-21T10:26:46.000Z" title="2021-08-21T10:26:46.000Z">Aug 21, 2021</time></div></div></div></div></div><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-16 pc-justifyContent-space-between pc-alignItems-center pc-reset flex-grow-rzmknG post-ufi"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><div class="like-button-container post-ufi-button style-button"><button tabindex="0" type="button" aria-label="Like" aria-pressed="false" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft post-ufi-button style-button no-label with-border"><svg aria-hidden="true" style="height:20px;width:20px;" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="#000000" stroke-width="2" stroke="#000" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" class="icon"><g><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="24" height="24" viewBox="0 0 24 24" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-heart"><path d="M19 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class="label">Share</div></button></div></div></div></div><div class="visibility-check"></div><div><div class="dt-post-body"><div class="available-content"><div dir="auto" class="body markup"><p><span>I’ve fallen way behind on my blog posts — my goal was to write one per month, and I haven’t published anything since MAY. Egads. So here I am dipping into the drafts archives! This one was written in April of 2016, when I was noodling over my CraftConf 2016 talk on “</span><a href="https://speakerdeck.com/charity/devops-for-developers-building-an-effective-ops-org-1">DevOps for Developers (see slides)</a><span>.”</span></p><p>So I got to the part in my talk where I’m talking about how to interview and hire software engineers who aren’t going to burn the fucking house down, and realized I could spend a solid hour on that question alone. That’s why I decided to turn it into a blog post instead.</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png" width="300" height="171" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/b265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:171,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><h3 class="header-anchor-post">Stop telling ops people to code better, start telling SWEs to ops better<div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-alignItems-center pc-position-absolute pc-reset header-anchor-parent"><div class="pencraft pc-display-contents pc-reset pubTheme-yiXxQA"><div id="§stop-telling-ops-people-to-code-better-start-telling-swes-to-ops-better" class="pencraft pc-reset header-anchor offset-top"></div><button tabindex="0" type="button" aria-label="Link" data-href="https://charity.wtf/i/181745888/stop-telling-ops-people-to-code-better-start-telling-swes-to-ops-better" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft iconButton-mq_Et5 iconButtonBase-dJGHgN buttonBase-GK1x3M buttonStyle-r7yGCK size_sm-G3LciD priority_secondary-S63h9o"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="18" height="18" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-link"><path d="M10 13a5 5 0 0 0 7.54.54l3-3a5 5 0 0 0-7.07-7.07l-1.72 1.71"></path><path d="M14 11a5 5 0 0 0-7.54-.54l-3 3a5 5 0 0 0 7.07 7.07l1.71-1.71"></path></svg></button></div></div></h3><p><span>Our industry has gotten very good at pressing operations engineers to get better at writing code, writing tests, and software engineering in general these past few years. Which is great! But we have not been </span><em>nearly</em><span> so good at pushing software engineers to level up their systems skills. Which is unfortunate, because it is just as important.</span></p><p>Most systems suffer from the syndrome of running too much software. Tossing more software into the heap is as likely to cause more problems as often as it solves them.</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png" width="134" height="134" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/ce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:134,&quot;width&quot;:134,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><p>We see this play out at companies stacked with good software engineers who have built horrifying spaghetti messes of their infrastructure, and then commence paging themselves to death.</p><p>The only way to unwind this is to reset expectations, and make it clear that</p><ol><li><p><span>you are still responsible for your code after it’s been deployed to production, and</span><strong> </strong></p></li><li><p><span>operational excellence is everyone’s job</span><strong>.</strong></p></li></ol><p>Operations is the constellation of tools, practices, policies, habits, and docs around shipping value to users, and every single one of us needs to participate in order to do this swiftly and safely.</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png" width="300" height="159" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:159,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><h3 class="header-anchor-post">Every software engineering interviewing loop should have an ops component.<div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-alignItems-center pc-position-absolute pc-reset header-anchor-parent"><div class="pencraft pc-display-contents pc-reset pubTheme-yiXxQA"><div id="§every-software-engineering-interviewing-loop-should-have-an-ops-component" class="pencraft pc-reset header-anchor offset-top"></div><button tabindex="0" type="button" aria-label="Link" data-href="https://charity.wtf/i/181745888/every-software-engineering-interviewing-loop-should-have-an-ops-component" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft iconButton-mq_Et5 iconButtonBase-dJGHgN buttonBase-GK1x3M buttonStyle-r7yGCK size_sm-G3LciD priority_secondary-S63h9o"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="18" height="18" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-link"><path d="M10 13a5 5 0 0 0 7.54.54l3-3a5 5 0 0 0-7.07-7.07l-1.72 1.71"></path><path d="M14 11a5 5 0 0 0-7.54-.54l-3 3a5 5 0 0 0 7.07 7.07l1.71-1.71"></path></svg></button></div></div></h3><p>Nobody interviews candidates for SRE or ops nowadays without asking some coding questions. You don’t have to be the greatest programmer in the world, but you can’t be functionally illiterate. The reverse is less common: asking software engineers basic, stupid questions about the lifecycle of their code, instrumentation best practices, etc. </p><p>It’s common practice at lots of companies now to have a software engineer in the loop for hiring SREs to evaluate their coding abilities. It should be just as common to have an ops engineer in the loop for a SWE hire, especially for any SWE who is being</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png" width="116" height="176" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:176,&quot;width&quot;:116,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><p> considered for a key senior position. Those are the people you most rely on to be mentors and role models for junior hires. All engineers should embrace the ethos of owning their code in production, and nobody should be promoted or hired into a senior role if they don’t.</p><p><span>And yes, that means </span><em>all engineers</em><span>!  Even your iOS/Android engineers and website developers should be interested in what happens to their code after they hit deploy.  They should care about things like instrumentation, and what kind of data they may need later to debug their problems, and how their features may impact other infrastructure components.</span></p><p>You need to balance out your software engineers with engineers who don’t react to every problem by writing more code. You need engineers who write code begrudgingly, as a last resort. You’ll find these priceless gems in ops and SRE.</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png" width="300" height="161" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/b80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:161,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><h3 class="header-anchor-post">ops questions for software engineers<div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-alignItems-center pc-position-absolute pc-reset header-anchor-parent"><div class="pencraft pc-display-contents pc-reset pubTheme-yiXxQA"><div id="§ops-questions-for-software-engineers" class="pencraft pc-reset header-anchor offset-top"></div><button tabindex="0" type="button" aria-label="Link" data-href="https://charity.wtf/i/181745888/ops-questions-for-software-engineers" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft iconButton-mq_Et5 iconButtonBase-dJGHgN buttonBase-GK1x3M buttonStyle-r7yGCK size_sm-G3LciD priority_secondary-S63h9o"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="18" height="18" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-link"><path d="M10 13a5 5 0 0 0 7.54.54l3-3a5 5 0 0 0-7.07-7.07l-1.72 1.71"></path><path d="M14 11a5 5 0 0 0-7.54-.54l-3 3a5 5 0 0 0 7.07 7.07l1.71-1.71"></path></svg></button></div></div></h3><p>The best questions are broad and start off easy, with plenty of reasonable answers and pathways to explore. Even beginners can give a reasonable answer, while experts can go on talking for hours.</p><p>For example: give them the specs for a new feature, and ask them to talk through the infrastructure choices and dependencies to support that feature. Do they ask about things like which</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png" width="166" height="91" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/cdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:91,&quot;width&quot;:166,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><p> languages, databases, and frameworks are already supported by the team? Do they understand what kind of monitoring and observability tools to use, do they ask about local instrumentation best practices?</p><p>Or design a full deployment pipeline together. Probe what they know about generating artifacts, versioning, rollbacks, branching vs master, canarying, rolling restarts, green/blue deploys, etc. How might they design a deploy tool? Talk through the tradeoffs.</p><p>Some other good starting points:</p><ul><li><p>“Tell me about the last time you caused a production outage. What happened, how did you find out, how was it resolved, and what did you learn?”</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png" width="148" height="168" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:168,&quot;width&quot;:148,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a></li><li><p>“What are some of your favorite tools for visibility, instrumentation, and debugging?</p></li><li><p>“Latency seems to have doubled over the last 6 hours. Where do you start looking, how do you start debugging?”</p></li><li><p>And this chestnut: “What happens when you type ‘google.com’ into a web browser?” You would be fucking *astonished* how many senior software engineers don’t know a thing about DNS, HTTP, SSL/TLS, cookies, TCP/IP, routing, load balancers, web servers, proxies, and on and on.</p></li></ul><p>Another question I really like is: “what’s your favorite API (or database, or language) and why?” followed up by “… and what are the worst things about it?” (True love doesn’t mean blind worship.)</p><p><span>Remember, you’re exploring someone’s experience and depth here, not giving them a pass-fail quiz. It’s </span><em>okay</em><span> if they don’t know it all. You’re also evaluating them on communication skills, which is severely underrated by most people but is actually as a key technical skill.</span></p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png" width="300" height="153" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:153,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><h3 class="header-anchor-post">Signals to look for<div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-alignItems-center pc-position-absolute pc-reset header-anchor-parent"><div class="pencraft pc-display-contents pc-reset pubTheme-yiXxQA"><div id="§signals-to-look-for" class="pencraft pc-reset header-anchor offset-top"></div><button tabindex="0" type="button" aria-label="Link" data-href="https://charity.wtf/i/181745888/signals-to-look-for" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft iconButton-mq_Et5 iconButtonBase-dJGHgN buttonBase-GK1x3M buttonStyle-r7yGCK size_sm-G3LciD priority_secondary-S63h9o"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="18" height="18" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-link"><path d="M10 13a5 5 0 0 0 7.54.54l3-3a5 5 0 0 0-7.07-7.07l-1.72 1.71"></path><path d="M14 11a5 5 0 0 0-7.54-.54l-3 3a5 5 0 0 0 7.07 7.07l1.71-1.71"></path></svg></button></div></div></h3><p>You’re not looking for perfection. You are teasing out signals for things like, how will this person perform on a team where software engineers are expected to own their code? How much do they know about the world outside the code they write themselves? Are they curious, eager, and willing to learn, or fearful, incurious and begrudging?</p><p>Do they expect networks to be reliable? Do they expect databases to respond, retries to succeed? Are they offended by the idea of being on call? Are they overly clever or do they look to simplify? (God, I hate clever software engineers 🙃.)</p><a target="_blank" href="https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 424w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 848w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1272w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1" width="196" height="73" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:73,&quot;width&quot;:196,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 424w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 848w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1272w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><p><span>It’s valuable to get a feel for an engineer’s operational chops, but let’s be clear, you’re doing this for one big reason: to set expectations. By making ops questions part of the interview, you’re establishing from the start that you run an org where </span><strong>operations is valued</strong><span>, where ownership is non-optional. This is not an ivory tower where software engineers can merrily git push and go home for the day and let other people handle the fallout</span></p><p>It can be toxic when you have an engineer who thinks all ops work is toil and operations engineering is lesser-than. It tends to result in operations work being done very poorly. This is your best chance to let those people self-select out.</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png" width="300" height="153" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:153,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy" class="sizing-normal"/></picture><div></div></div></a><p>You know what, I’m actually feeling uncharacteristically optimistic right now. I’m remembering how controversial some of this stuff was when I first wrote it, five years ago in 2016. Nowadays it just sounds obvious. Like table stakes.</p><p>Hell yeah. 🤘</p><a target="_blank" href="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM" class="image-link image2 can-restack"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"/><img src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg" width="140" height="186" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/a6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:186,&quot;width&quot;:140,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" alt title srcset="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 424w, 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every software engineering interview should include ops questions\",\"type\":\"newsletter\",\"video_upload_id\":null,\"write_comment_permissions\":\"everyone\",\"meter_type\":\"none\",\"live_stream_id\":null,\"is_published\":true,\"restacks\":0,\"reactions\":{\"\u2764\":0},\"top_exclusions\":[],\"pins\":[],\"section_pins\":[],\"has_shareable_clips\":false,\"previous_post_slug\":\"how-much-should-my-observability-stack-cost\",\"next_post_slug\":\"software-deploys-and-cognitive-biases\",\"cover_image\":null,\"cover_image_is_square\":false,\"cover_image_is_explicit\":false,\"videoUpload\":null,\"podcastFields\":null,\"podcastUpload\":null,\"podcastPreviewUpload\":null,\"voiceover_upload_id\":null,\"voiceoverUpload\":null,\"has_voiceover\":false,\"description\":\"I\u2019ve fallen way behind on my blog posts \u2014 my goal was to write one per month, and I haven\u2019t published anything since MAY.\",\"body_html\":\"<p>I\u2019ve fallen way behind on my blog posts \u2014 my goal was to write one per month, and I haven\u2019t published anything since MAY. Egads. So here I am dipping into the drafts archives! This one was written in April of 2016, when I was noodling over my CraftConf 2016 talk on \u201C<a href=\\\"https://speakerdeck.com/charity/devops-for-developers-building-an-effective-ops-org-1\\\">DevOps for Developers (see slides)</a>.\u201D</p><p>So I got to the part in my talk where I\u2019m talking about how to interview and hire software engineers who aren\u2019t going to burn the fucking house down, and realized I could spend a solid hour on that question alone. That\u2019s why I decided to turn it into a blog post instead.</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png\\\" width=\\\"300\\\" height=\\\"171\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/b265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:171,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!EY1a!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb265a98e-3f49-4b4e-8ee5-c69a7bb867d8_299x171.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" fetchpriority=\\\"high\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><h3>Stop telling ops people to code better, start telling SWEs to ops better</h3><p>Our industry has gotten very good at pressing operations engineers to get better at writing code, writing tests, and software engineering in general these past few years. Which is great! But we have not been <em>nearly</em> so good at pushing software engineers to level up their systems skills. Which is unfortunate, because it is just as important.</p><p>Most systems suffer from the syndrome of running too much software. Tossing more software into the heap is as likely to cause more problems as often as it solves them.</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png\\\" width=\\\"134\\\" height=\\\"134\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/ce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:134,&quot;width&quot;:134,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YhGm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fce3e46a9-71c2-42cc-8aa7-7c15ab0904e4_300x299.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><p>We see this play out at companies stacked with good software engineers who have built horrifying spaghetti messes of their infrastructure, and then commence paging themselves to death.</p><p>The only way to unwind this is to reset expectations, and make it clear that</p><ol><li><p>you are still responsible for your code after it\u2019s been deployed to production, and<strong>&nbsp;</strong></p></li><li><p>operational excellence is everyone\u2019s job<strong>.</strong></p></li></ol><p>Operations is the constellation of tools, practices, policies, habits, and docs around shipping value to users, and every single one of us needs to participate in order to do this swiftly and safely.</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png\\\" width=\\\"300\\\" height=\\\"159\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:159,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5abw!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1143599c-089e-4930-9562-2bbb59503848_299x159.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><h3>Every software engineering interviewing loop should have an ops&nbsp;component.</h3><p>Nobody interviews candidates for SRE or ops nowadays without asking some coding questions. You don\u2019t have to be the greatest programmer in the world, but you can\u2019t be functionally illiterate. The reverse is less common: asking software engineers basic, stupid questions about the lifecycle of their code, instrumentation best practices, etc.&nbsp;</p><p>It\u2019s common practice at lots of companies now to have a software engineer in the loop for hiring SREs to evaluate their coding abilities. It should be just as common to have an ops engineer in the loop for a SWE hire, especially for any SWE who is being</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png\\\" width=\\\"116\\\" height=\\\"176\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:176,&quot;width&quot;:116,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!qoTg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6b8083de-3ac7-4174-92f2-7d06f1045373_198x300.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><p> considered for a key senior position. Those are the people you most rely on to be mentors and role models for junior hires. All engineers should embrace the ethos of owning their code in production, and nobody should be promoted or hired into a senior role if they don\u2019t.</p><p>And yes, that means&nbsp;<em>all engineers</em>!&nbsp; Even your iOS/Android engineers and website developers should be interested in what happens to their code after they hit deploy.&nbsp; They should care&nbsp;about things like instrumentation, and what kind of data they may need later to debug their problems, and how their features may&nbsp;impact other infrastructure components.</p><p>You need to balance out your software engineers with engineers who don\u2019t react to every problem by writing more code. You need engineers who write code begrudgingly, as a last resort. You\u2019ll find these priceless gems in ops and SRE.</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png\\\" width=\\\"300\\\" height=\\\"161\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/b80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:161,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!sXx2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb80d644a-5e0d-4e3e-9c69-1f8fd9729846_299x161.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><h3>ops questions for software engineers</h3><p>The best questions are broad and start off easy, with plenty of reasonable answers and pathways to explore. Even beginners can give a reasonable answer, while experts can go on talking for hours.</p><p>For example: give them the specs for a new feature, and ask them to talk through the infrastructure choices and dependencies to support that feature. Do they ask about things like which</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png\\\" width=\\\"166\\\" height=\\\"91\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/cdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:91,&quot;width&quot;:166,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!1mMo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcdad9186-ad1e-4307-a1d1-aa131c6b2b5e_300x164.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><p> languages, databases, and frameworks are already supported by the team? Do they understand what kind of monitoring and observability tools to use, do they ask about local instrumentation best practices?</p><p>Or design a full deployment pipeline together. Probe what they know&nbsp;about generating artifacts, versioning, rollbacks, branching vs master, canarying, rolling restarts, green/blue deploys, etc. How might they design a deploy tool? Talk through the tradeoffs.</p><p>Some other good starting points:</p><ul><li><p>\u201CTell me about the last time you caused a production outage. What happened, how did you find out, how was it resolved, and what did you learn?\u201D</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png\\\" width=\\\"148\\\" height=\\\"168\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:168,&quot;width&quot;:148,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zYTI!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F61a66328-f1a6-4182-848c-5f18bc07faae_264x300.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a></li><li><p>\u201CWhat are some of your favorite tools for visibility, instrumentation, and debugging?</p></li><li><p>\u201CLatency seems to have doubled over the last 6 hours. Where do you start looking, how do you start debugging?\u201D</p></li><li><p>And this chestnut: \u201CWhat happens when you type \u2018google.com\u2019 into a web browser?\u201D You would be fucking *astonished* how many senior software engineers don\u2019t know a thing about DNS, HTTP, SSL/TLS, cookies, TCP/IP, routing, load balancers, web servers, proxies, and on and on.</p></li></ul><p>Another question I really like is: \u201Cwhat\u2019s your favorite API (or database, or language) and why?\u201D followed up by \u201C\u2026 and what are the worst things about it?\u201D (True love doesn\u2019t mean blind worship.)</p><p>Remember, you\u2019re exploring someone\u2019s experience and depth here, not giving them a pass-fail quiz. It\u2019s&nbsp;<em>okay</em> if they don\u2019t know it all. You\u2019re also evaluating them on communication skills, which is severely underrated by most people but is actually as a key technical skill.</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png\\\" width=\\\"300\\\" height=\\\"153\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:153,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!MFAi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F458f3915-80ff-4a57-8e43-7c893173d3dd_299x153.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><h3>Signals to look for</h3><p>You\u2019re not looking for perfection. You are teasing out signals for things like, how will this person perform on a team where software engineers are expected to own their code? How much do they know about the world outside the code they write themselves? Are they curious, eager, and willing to learn, or fearful, incurious and begrudging?</p><p>Do they expect networks to be reliable? Do they expect databases to respond, retries to succeed? Are they offended by the idea of being on call? Are they overly clever or do they look to simplify? (God, I hate clever software engineers \uD83D\uDE43.)</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 424w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 848w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1272w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1\\\" width=\\\"196\\\" height=\\\"73\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:73,&quot;width&quot;:196,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 424w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 848w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1272w, https://i0.wp.com/charity.wtf/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ship-dangerously-rainbow-300x112.png?resize=196%2C73&amp;ssl=1 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><p>It\u2019s valuable to get a feel for an engineer\u2019s operational chops, but let\u2019s be clear, you\u2019re doing this for one big reason: to set expectations. By making ops questions part of the interview, you\u2019re establishing from the start that you run an org where <strong>operations is valued</strong>, where ownership is non-optional. This is not an ivory tower where software engineers can merrily git push and go home for the day and let other people handle the fallout</p><p>It can be toxic when you have an engineer who thinks all ops work is toil and operations engineering is lesser-than. It tends to result in operations work being done very poorly. This is your best chance to let those people self-select out.</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png\\\" width=\\\"300\\\" height=\\\"153\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:153,&quot;width&quot;:300,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!R8PC!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd67af2c1-8247-476e-9954-58482383958e_300x153.png 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a><p>You know what, I\u2019m actually feeling uncharacteristically optimistic right now. I\u2019m remembering how controversial some of this stuff was when I first wrote it, five years ago in 2016. Nowadays it just sounds obvious. Like table stakes.</p><p>Hell yeah. \uD83E\uDD18</p><a class=\\\"image-link image2\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" href=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg\\\" data-component-name=\\\"Image2ToDOM\\\"><div class=\\\"image2-inset\\\"><picture><source type=\\\"image/webp\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_424,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_848,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\"><img src=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg\\\" width=\\\"140\\\" height=\\\"186\\\" data-attrs=\\\"{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/a6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:186,&quot;width&quot;:140,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}\\\" class=\\\"sizing-normal\\\" alt=\\\"\\\" title=\\\"\\\" srcset=\\\"https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_424,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 424w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_848,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 848w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1272,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 1272w, https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!V9nK!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa6e41305-5b9f-4c44-938f-6577fbe87595_225x299.jpeg 1456w\\\" sizes=\\\"100vw\\\" loading=\\\"lazy\\\"></picture><div></div></div></a>\",\"has_dynamic_content\":false,\"truncated_body_text\":\"I\u2019ve fallen way behind on my blog posts \u2014 my goal was to write one per month, and I haven\u2019t published anything since MAY. Egads. So here I am dipping into the drafts archives! 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